Interview with an ASL Professor

Dr. John Pirone is a teacher, evaluator, researcher, and advocate who coordinates an American Sign Language (ASL) program and teaches ASL and Deaf Culture courses at UVM. In addition to teaching, Dr. Pirone actively engages in community advocacy through the Massachusetts State Association of the Deaf and Disability Policy Consortium to advance Deaf people’s human rights.

Q:  Okay, so we explored the concept of audism in our ASL class. So do you wanna explain what audism is in your own terms and how it's different from ableism?

A: Audism is pressure imposed upon hearing abilities, whereas ableism is pressure based on abilities, on capabilities in general. Audism is focused and connected to hearing abilities. There can be many situations that happen that are connected to hearing abilities, not just in general

Q: Why do you think it's important to make that distinction, especially in an educational setting?

A: Well, one important factor is for Deaf people to make sense of their own experiences as a Deaf person. When you have oppressive experiences over and over and over, how are you able to make sense of that experience? Also for the deaf, we all have similar experiences and that concept can help us all have that commonality.

And secondly, that concept helps us recognize what that oppression is, and what it causes based on hearing abilities. So if there is no concept, then how are we able to recognize that kind of oppression? How do we point to that kind of oppression? In addition, it's important that people understand there are many different levels of it. So it can be a person, it can be a campus, it can be an idea within, you know, an ideology, so it can have an intention or it could be unintentional." 

Q: As a deaf person, do you feel as though UVM is accessible to you? Or what kind of manifestations of audism here on campus do you think stick out most to you?

A: Here on campus, specific to the deaf and those that use sign language, that means interpreting services, captioning services, see c print, communication access, and real-time translation. Some deaf prefer to use that, but here on campus. TVs, um, PCs, many of them don't always provide captioning. And interpreters, their availability is not always there for everything. It's limited. 

So how does that connect to audism? It's not like the university is attempting to intentionally oppress, but the system is designed as such. So when you think about hearing capabilities, if you are able to hear, you have access to hear everything that is going around, you're not necessarily thinking about the Deaf needs, you're not thinking about events. ‘Oh, we're going to require an interpreter for that event’-- So that's just one example. 

For faculty, it's a completely different situation. Both students and faculty need an interpreter, but what kind of interpreter? Bad interpretation is very important to make sure that everything is expressed clearly and is matching the teacher's knowledge level. It's not the same with a student. A student is in the process of learning and an interpreter is translating that information from the teacher to the student. So a student's needs and my needs are going to differ. 

Q: I guess that kind of leads into my next question about how your experience has been at UVM as a deaf educator and how it has kind of compared to other institutions you may have worked with, like other colleges or schools, et cetera.

A: Every college has its differences. One similarity in all that is obvious is the classroom assignments. Many do not understand why a Deaf teacher needs a specific room. They don't understand that. They don't realize the visual needs that are important in ASL, and I know that you've experienced that. The very first day of class was a very good example. Compared to now, it's very different. So now you're able to see why it was important to have elbow room, specific lighting, the space, and the boards in multiple areas for us to write on. It's easier for us to intermingle. All of that is very important for ASL and many universities do not understand.

Do we have enough seating for the number of students? They don't think about how the seats are set up, or what the lighting is like. Is there enough elbow room, is there enough space? 

So that is very closely related to audism because of how they are thinking. They're thinking about hearing ability. They're not thinking about how the university is designed with regard to accessibility. 

I know from one of my old universities, they only provided an interpreter for the class. That was it. So if we were to set up an event, they did not provide an interpreter for that. Also if there was a meeting with a student outside of classroom time.  that was limited as well. They did not provide an interpreter for that.

Whereas here, it is very open. They're very open to providing interpreters, but the problem is that many interpreters are not available. There are a very small number of interpreters here so it's a different kind of challenge. 

Q: What kind of role do you think educators and students have to push administrations to integrate the needs of Deaf people and be more conscious of Deaf culture in classrooms?

A: Well, in my belief, the way that we're able to change that would be for those who provide services and are responsible for providing services, or who teach or who are going to be working with those individuals. They themselves must be involved in learning themself.

You're not able to just sit back and make assumptions based on what you think needs are. It requires that person to be immersed, learn in meetings, sit down, and discuss ‘what do I need to know?’ ‘What are your needs?’ ‘What am I missing?’ So being willing to have those levels of understanding of knowledge and taking advantage of the opportunity to learn -- not limiting yourself to just what is required to do.

Q: In your experience, do you think you've seen that kind of change throughout your life or has it mostly stayed the same?

A: Well in general there have been big changes. It is a lot better than previously, but there is still a lot of work to do. Some of the changes I've seen have been attitude -- I have noticed a big change in attitude for the positive, but actions, putting action into the system not necessarily as of yet. It's very dependent on where you are, the people who are involved, and those individual people's attitudes. All of that is a factor. 

Q: You talk about systemic issues, so I want to get more into the question of how institutions can change to make places more accessible. What kind of actions could UVM do better to make the campus more accessible, as an institution?

A: It is a large system, with a lot of different branches. There are the students, there's the faculty, there's technology, there are classrooms, there are work meetings, and departments. It's an encompassing system, so there are many different people. There's the registration office, there's student accessibility service, there's my college department, those individuals. 

It would be nice if student services (SAS) were set up separately from faculty accessibility services. I believe that would help a lot because then they would be able to focus solely on the faculty's needs, and not just for the deaf, but also for other professors who have disabilities.

I believe that would be one way to transform this campus into a universal design for all.

And for faculty -- well, how can that transform not just for the focus on the faculty's needs, but also for advocacy? It doesn't seem that there is any, and that is one thing that hurts. I believe with advocacy the system would change. And I understand that the faculty and students can advocate, but that's not really our job. Our focus is supposed to be on what we're supposed to be doing such as teaching, or learning. 

Q: I have one last question. It's kind of a big one. You said the oppression of deaf people is a systemic issue, so when you imagine an alternative system to the oppressive one that we currently have, what does it look like to you?

A: Well, the first thing would be full accessibility. And really, the point would be to not have to think about things like: ‘Do you need this?’, ‘Are they gonna provide this?’, ‘Are they gonna have an interpreter?’, or ‘Are they gonna have an accessible room?’ Will they, will they, will they… all of these things are always in the back of your mind. And not having to think about that is what I want. I want accessibility to become the norm, and not have to wait until somebody asks for it. 

For example, if the university is having a large event, I want to automatically have services provided. I don’t want to worry about my classroom assignment because they already know what to do. They know what our needs are. They already have it set up. It's already provided. You would have the interpreter, you have the captioning -- everything is automatically applied.

But that attitude is connected with accessibility needs. And not just for our needs, but if there's an opportunity, for that opportunity to be accessible for teachers and students as well because then we can all take advantage of that.